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18 May 2023
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Be Nino!!!!

You've become really desperate about that by now, haven't you?
Very well. Fortunately, it is finally a good time to fulfill your wish. He's just about ready for it.

But do temper your expectations.

Because this encounter won't last long.

  • Nino: What the hell was that...
  • Nino: What was I thinking...?

  • Nino: Wait, no... you, it's YOU!
  • Nino: What were you thinking, going off-course like that!?

  • Nino: Uh, I...
  • Nino: I... don't know.

  • Nino: What was the point of all that planning!?
  • Nino: To go against everything at the last second...
  • Nino: God, they've made me so unbelievably wishy-washy.

  • Nino: Hey, uh...
  • Nino: If you claim to be me, then wouldn't you know what I was thinking?

  • Nino: ...That's hard to answer.
  • Nino: Because you don't know what you were thinking.
  • Nino: Seriously, what are you so confused for...
  • Nino: You're really full of contradictions, you know?
  • Nino: Anyway, do you even understand how reckless you were?
  • Nino: You wasted your fortification to jump after Mei...
  • Nino: How could you risk everything so thoughtlessly like that!?

  • Nino: ...I think...
  • Nino: I just didn't want to lose her.

  • Nino: ...Really? That's all?

  • Nino: Yeah, I don't know why, but I...
  • Nino: I just know that I wanted to save Mei as quickly as I could.
  • Nino: I... I was going to get us through for sure.
  • Nino: But Mei, she, she let go...
  • Nino: ...How dare she?

Nino: Process.

  • Nino: ...Oh.
  • Nino: It's true... huh.
  • Nino: It's like she just gave up.
  • Nino: And, I'd never seen Mei make such a face before.
  • Nino: Wasn't that a little shocking...

  • Nino: What happened to me, anyway?
  • Nino: Did I manage to cross over to the monster world in the end?
  • Nino: And what about everyone else? Did they make it... and Mei, too...?
  • Nino: If I'm seeing this place, then ... I must be dreaming again.
  • Nino: But I don't remember going to sleep.
  • Nino: I must be unconscious somehow... it feels like I've missed so much.
  • Nino: So then... I just need to wake up now! Right?
  • Nino: You wouldn't happen to have any clue about all that, would you?

Nino: Observe Corvus constellation.

  • Nino: ...When did I start caring that much?
  • Nino: I guess luck's good to have on my side.
  • Nino: And Mei is already such an abnormality anyway...
  • Nino: Thinking too hard about anything related to her won't get me anywhere.
  • Nino: I suppose I can make an exception for the funny angel only this once.
  • Nino: Just don't forget what matters most.

  • Nino: Oh my god, were you even listening?
  • Nino: If you're not gonna say anything helpful or answer my questions,
  • Nino: Then shut your trap.
  • Nino: And while we're at it...
  • Nino: Don't talk like you're me, or like you have any say on what I do.
  • Nino: That's the last thing I need right now!

  • Nino: Huh? Again... who do you think you're talking to?
  • Nino: Stop arguing with yourself like an idiot.

  • Nino: Shut it! Why should your words matter to me at all?
  • Nino: No, in the first place...
  • Nino: Why should I treat you like you're me?
  • Nino: You have no proof.

  • Nino: Proof...? Of what?

  • Nino: Of being any part of ME!

  • Nino: Huh.
  • Nino: The truth is right in front of your eyes, idiot.

  • Nino: Nope, not listening to anything you say!
  • Nino: You aren't going to have the same influence you did before.
  • Nino: As long as there's no reason that I SHOULD listen,
  • Nino: Then consider your words totally null.
  • Nino: Also... stop calling me an idiot, you idiot!

Nino: Begin.

  • Nino: Jeez! Why am I so...
  • Nino: ...Ugh, never mind.
  • Nino: I shouldn't be surprised, knowing the way I think.
  • Nino: Okay, then. I'll let you see some proof yourself.
  • Nino: I'm going to pose a very simple question for you here.
  • Nino: And if you answer it, then you'll know the truth.

  • Nino: First, last time...
  • Nino: I recounted various details about the little party that travels with you, and the people you've met.
  • Nino: Furthermore, I recounted to you your own feelings about these people, as if you were an open book in my hands.

  • Nino: Second... "In the end, I only have myself".
  • Nino: I reached in the depths of your mind and brought back this truth to light.
  • Nino: It's the promise that you, that I, made to myself, and have always lived by.
  • Nino: ...And something that you were desperately trying to bury away.

  • Nino: Third... and it's a simple one.
  • Nino: The fact that I don't know anything that you don't know.

  • Nino: And, finally...
  • Nino: Surely, you haven't forgotten what happened when I used that sword to invoke the memories of our body... have you?
  • Nino: Heh. I don't believe you'll need a second demonstration of that now.

Nino: Ask.

  • Nino: Now, my question is, how could I do all of this?
  • Nino: It's simply because I am you, and you are me.
  • Nino: But if you will still deny me, then go on.
  • Nino: Answer my question with another valid explanation... if you can.
  • Nino: I'm sure you'll find it impossible to do so.

Nino: Pause.

...Huh? Is this guy serious?
As if you have time to waste on this crap! You've gotta wake up and find Mei!

Yet, no matter how long you wait in your defiance, the dreamscape persists.
In fact, it feels as if the passage of time hardly changes a thing.

What must you do, in order to wake up?

Nino: Think.

Suddenly, a strange sensation overtakes your whole being. A series of thoughts flows in, as if the answer to this dilemma had just popped into your mind.

The faster you answer him, the sooner you're out of here.

So long as a conflict exists within this place, you can't do as you please...
That's what your heart is telling you.

Well, alright. Maybe you'll give it a shot. You don't like his bossy attitude, anyway. It's a chance to shut him down once and for all, isn't it?

  • Nino: So? Ready to take it seriously, at last?
He looks at you with a smug expression, as if to say "there is no escape".
Ha. You'll knock that confidence right off his face.

No matter how much he insists that you're one and the same, you'll never accept it. There must be some other explanation for what he's asking.

Nino's Challenge.

I'm going to pose a very simple question for you here.
And if you answer it, then you'll know the truth.

First, last time...
I recounted various details about the little party that travels with you, and the people you've met. Furthermore, I recounted to you your own feelings about these people, as if you were an open book in my hands.

Second... "In the end, I only have myself".
I reached in the depths of your mind and brought back this truth to light.
It's the promise that you, that I, made to myself, and have always lived by.
...And something that you were desperately trying to bury away.

Third... and it's a simple one.
The fact that I don't know anything that you don't know.

And, finally...
Surely, you haven't forgotten what happened when I used that sword to invoke the memories of our body... have you? Heh. I don't believe you'll need a second demonstration of that now.

Now, my question is, how could I do all of this?

It's simply because I am you, and you are me.

But if you will still deny me, then go on.

Answer my question with another valid explanation... if you can.
I'm sure you'll find it impossible to do so.

Nino: Answer Nino.
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Reeder
Reeder
11 months ago

Nino: You've seen spirits capable of using other people's memories against them. Everything that he has said, a spirit could have also done!

Pilly
Pilly
11 months ago

Caped Nino is right, they're the same guy. The only problem is that with time, priorities change. the question isn't "Are Caped Nino and Nino the same person?" It's "Does Caped Nino represent current Nino's thoughts?" And the answer is... no. He represents an outdated perspective. He's not our Nino. The logic is sound but the emotions don't mix.

Pilly
Pilly
11 months ago
Reply to  Pilly

I hope this makes sense, I might've worded it a bit confusingly =v=;

pikarai
pikarai
11 months ago

Nino: Who said there could be only one Nino? If you wrack your brain back to the your first encounter - those bodies had slight differences, no? One of them even looked like a girl! Who’s to say you’re not one of them.

Nino: There’s no guarantee your mind hasn’t been tampered with either. Your memory issues are scarily similar to kaji’s - who lost incredibly specific memories tied to his betrayal. If a ruler can erase and change memories, surely they could read them too. Who knows what other memory-related abilities someone like that could have. The only problem - why would such a powerful person care about a nobody like you?

Nino: It felt like you were being watched earlier in Wither Garden - it could be related to what this “you” knows

Nino: and what if it *is* you? People can change. Your ideas were wrong and can be discarded, even if your past self disagrees with it. Is this even your past self? It could be simply a small part of you - an incomplete being shouldn’t be making decisions for the whole on its own.

Nino: Do you even need to answer this riddle to end this “conflict”?

Nino: You’ve already contradicted yourself in your points. If you only know what I know, then how come you knew that “I only have myself”? How did you know about Fortifications’ potential? For someone who “only knows what I know”, you sure are giving me a lot of new information.

VBrainer
VBrainer
11 months ago
Reply to  pikarai

Adding onto that last point

Nino: Even if the body remembers your ability's potential, that claim doesn't work for the words "I only have myself." His argument falls apart unless there's some crucial detail he's kept from you. In which case, he knew something you didn't and his argument falls apart anyways, but surely he has nothing left to gain by hiding the truth. Ask this Phantom what he really knows.

pikarai
pikarai
11 months ago
Reply to  pikarai

Nino: manifest third nino for a laugh

redaer
redaer
11 months ago

TLDR: > Nino: He's only a part of you, and not a very well-adapted one at that!

"Dream Nino" represents a particular facet of Nino's personality. He appears as a distinct person because Nino's intuitions and emotional responses in that mental state are markedly different from (and probably repulsive to) his "regular" personality.

From some of the flashbacks we've seen, it's possible the "Dream Nino" personality originated from an experience of childhood trauma. Nino may have been a child soldier and/or had friends or family killed by monsters (possibly his former neighbors if he lived on the monster side?).

If so, it might explain why he's untrusting, focused on self-dependence and survival. Nino's healing/self-empowering ability lends further credence to this theory. (Take the psychology stuff with a grain of salt, I don't know that much about it.)

That said, Dream Nino is only a part of Nino, albeit a significant one. If Nino accepts him as part of his personality, he need not be especially influenced by it. (If he's lucky, he might get a persona out of it!)

redaer
redaer
11 months ago
Reply to  redaer

He probably didn't live on the monster side, see https://oceanfalls.net/p/1299. The "self-reliance emphasis" might just be the result of living in a war zone, or seeing his friends and family being killed (and seeing that as failure to protect him).

IHATETHEANTININO
IHATETHEANTININO
11 months ago
Reply to  redaer

Nino: You're not me!

redaer
redaer
11 months ago

Also, unrelated comment: Is Suvillan's name derived from Sullivan in Monsters Inc? Should I be looking out for a monster named Zawowski?

VBrainer
VBrainer
11 months ago
Reply to  redaer

Nope. In fact, Night's mentioned that a peeve of his is confusing his name for "Sullivan", which is a human name. From what I know, nobody has figured out what it's really derived from, if anything.

VBrainer
VBrainer
11 months ago

I think I've got it.

Nino: Let's go over his argument one by one:

First, he knows all of your memories and feelings. There is no denying this. However, he does not have the same opinions as you do. When he saw the wonderful friends you made, he only saw semi-useful tools, while you saw what made them more. This means that he is in possession of a personality distinct from yours... but let's hold on that for now.

Next, he helped you remember that terrible (and untrue) phrase you tried to leave behind. He claims it is something fundamental that you and him have always lived by. From what that "fallen angel" told you, this could be misinterpreted as your "core", something so fundamental you can never forget it, but this isn't the case.

Although you don't remember it, you helped Five and Aria back in the monster world, healing the former and even almost dying to fight by and save the latter. Just yesterday, you offered a new point of view to Kaji, not expecting anything in return because he already gave you everything you needed. These actions don't seem conducive to that phrase, no? And just back at the barrier, you wasted your ability to try to save Mei. You did these things for seemingly no purpose other than to help others when they needed it most. Sure, the words "In the end, I only have myself" could be your core, but it could just as likely be something more healthy/constructive.

Third, he doesn't know what you don't. But surely that includes what you forgot, right? Then how did he recall the notion that "I only have myself" when you did not? It's plausible he could if it's the core of who you are, but that fact is highly debatable. Trust me, you never mentioned that you "only have yourself" before this wanna-be showed up. How could you forget those words and he didn't when he claims he only knows what you do and doesn't know what you don't? Did he help you remember or does he only know what you do? Only one could be true... unless he's kept something to himself.

That one contradiction proves at least one thing: he is a liar or he's hiding things from you. If he lied on this, how can you trust him when he says he is you? And if he hid information, knows something you don't, then his entire argument falls apart.

So, its your turn to ask him something

Nino: Are you a liar or is there something you have yet to say?

VBrainer
VBrainer
11 months ago
Reply to  VBrainer

One more thing I should add onto this.

Nino: If he knows everything you do, then why did he react with surprise at seeing Five at the end of your last dream? Surely he'd know about her just as much as the rest of your friends, but he didn't.

Somdudewillson
Somdudewillson
11 months ago

Firstly: That is all info any entity within Nino's mind would possess.
Secondly: There is no corroborating evidence for this "memory" having been true - and even if it is, again, any entity present in his mind pre-amnesia would have known this.
Thirdly: Not only have you not proven this, but it is fundamentally unprovable. (Also, points 2 and 4 actively contradict this claim. Like, c'mon man, claiming that you both only know what Nino knows and that you revealed things to him just isn't logically sound.)
Fourthly: Again, any entity in Nino's mind pre-amnesia would also know this.

This is just some knowledge that only proves that he's in Nino's mind - which wasn't really in doubt - and an unprovable claim that is also contracted within the same argument.

7arty
7arty
11 months ago

- Point 1 is a fairly "ordinary" feat
Mind readers, such as spirits in the monster world, are perfectly capable of doing all that without needing to actually be Nino.
The validity of points 2 and 4 hinge on point 1:
Both are variants to the claim that the Phantom knows something only Nino could know. Invalidating point 1 invalidates points 2 and 4.

- Point 3 is useless, as it cannot be proven.
There is literally nothing stopping the phantom from withholding any information he knows that Nino does not in order to keep this charade.

- Point 4 is irrelevant.
It proves Nino's body is accustomed to pain, but nothing more. The phantom's explanation as to why this is the case need not reflect reality.

- Point 2 supports the idea that Nino and the Phantom are not the same.
Having conflicting thoughts over something is fine, but reaching conflicting solutions is not: Nino concluding that "In the end, I only have myself" is a thought best buried, and the Phantom concluding it's something to live by.
If their thoughts, their memories, their perspective, their circumstances, the way their mind operates were the same... If, indeed, they were the same person... Then they would both have independently reached the same conclusion.
Even if the phantom were to convince Nino to adopt his own conclusion, the fact will still stand that there was a disagreement in the first place.

Taki
Taki
11 months ago

Pardon me if I've forgotten some things. I did go back over the
First off, Cape Nino is like "Oh yeah I don't know anything you don't" but first off Nino has no way to confirm this. As a matter of fact, Cape Nino actively deconfirms this by consciously knowing about Regen which Nino very clearly consciously didn't. On top of that, Cape Nino alludes to a goal under time constraints that Nino also based on his response is clearly not aware of.

Second off the amount of "Since when did you [x]" that Cape Nino does in the first interaction proves that Cape Nino is not fully understanding of how Nino is, at least how Nino is at the moment. Or alternatively Cape Nino does understand and is trying to convince Nino he thinks in a way he doesn't.

Now granted, we have the luxury of a transcript of these conversations to look back on and Nino has to remember that without any aids, but assuming Nino remembers this all well, Cape Nino's argument is very easily shot down. From my understanding anyways.

BlueBunnySkull
BlueBunnySkull
11 months ago

Drop everything. Order cape Nino to do a backflip, if he is you, he will know it looks cool and perform it, but if he doesn't then he's a faker!

nevermind3476
nevermind3476
11 months ago

Nino: Illusions are able to draw ideas from a target's mind to shape themselves - the Phantom could simply be an elaborate illusion, could it not?

MildTrash
MildTrash
11 months ago

What are you? You're a corpse. A dead Nino. You can't be me because I'm still alive, you're not.
Sometimes, spirits need to learn when to rest.

Unclevertitle
Unclevertitle
11 months ago

Nino: Maybe he used to be you... but people change.

You lost your memory, multiple times. It shouldn't be surprising that your identity is in conflict if you can't remember your past or who you were. But what is surprising is this conflict in values. Do you really believe that answering this question right this minute is more important than helping a friend or ally in need?

Lunk
Lunk
11 months ago

For The First question:

Nino: If he's been watching you, he'd be capable of knowing about the people you've met. He could know your opinions of them by watching you as well, as much of what you've thought hasn't been very hidden.

For the Second question:

Nino: He's lying when he tells you that you "Only have yourself." Aria seems to think you sacrificed yourself for her, and you just did the same for Mei without thinking. It is not in your nature to be selfish. Would someone like him really develop a healing ability? Fortification seems to be a side effect, not the primary ability.

For the Third question:

Nino: If he has been watching you, then of course he wouldn't know anything about you that you haven't already remembered. It would have been more convincing if he had known things about you that you hadn't remembered yet.

For the Fourth question:

Nino: That happened within a dream, and did not carry over to reality, as the bed sheets were not stained.

For the Final question:

Nino: Nothing he has said proves that he is the same as you. All he needs to be capable of to do this is to follow you and find some way to affect your dreams to meet you here.

Nino: The most likely explanation is that he is a monster that started following you at some point early on in the monster world, who has been using his ability to influence your mind, perhaps even causing your memory loss in the first place so that he could manipulate you like this.

Nino: His ability likely allows him to implant and remove memories from a being, which he used to both remove your memories when you arrived here, and to implant a false mantra meant to deceive you.

Lunk
Lunk
11 months ago
Reply to  Lunk

Additionally, him being someone following him would explain Five's flashback with Cape Nino where she claimed he healed her. (p/10929 Five: Continue) Cape Nino could have been watching from farther back. It would also parallel Kotori and the Prosperous' connection. Pairs seem to be an important theme in the story.

elo
elo
11 months ago

tbf all these can be answered with celestial behavior

HousePet
HousePet
11 months ago

Same mind? Maybe.
Same body? Perhaps it is shared?
Same soul? No.

mysteriousmaverick
mysteriousmaverick
11 months ago

Ninos: Just think everything through. The fact of the matter is, neither of you have anything you can do. You have no memories that shall guide you to a surefire truth. If it wasn't for the fact that you are an adult, you would be perhaps be mistaken for a lost child. You have to pause and focus on the entire depths of yourself. Either of you can be anything, from a split soul, another personality or part of a whole. You both must focus. The Man Cloaked in Crimson chose his actions and destiny himself. He could have been more gentle, but even if he walked his path at The Man Shrouded in Sapphire's heed, he still chose to force his allies by his own will. He is also the man who decided to suffer for others by his own will, assisting Kaji and sacrificing himself for Meimona, at the very least, You're a good kid Nino, whatever you are.

As for the challenges, firstly, you conflict in yourselves, only reaching consensus by your own inner war, with you both changing by argument. This means your thoughts do not match up, to put it simply. Secondly, you found good stock in your allies, with assistance from them you would be in a different place, though for better or worse is unsure. Perhaps without Mei you would have revealed your own unknown to yourselves crimes anyways, or without Aria you would be in conflict with Kaji, not to mention her and Five holding some secrets of your past. On the other hand, without Five, you would likely be free to proceed to wherever your goal would be. But frankly. with you forgetting about your whole life, lack of info, and the eternal conflict in yourself, you can't even rely on yourself. At times you will have only others, only yourself, and perhaps even both. But what can you do, when you do not even have yourself to have mercy upon, to spare or love? You must use the madness in your heart to live, your willpower. Thirdly, both of you reveal info to the other, meaning that you are not synchronized in your thoughts, such as with The Red Leader asking about his past and his beliefs, and being reluctant to believe The Cobalt Advisor. and The Advisor asking The Leader about his "funny angel" as he put it. Lastly, the information Blue had could be obtained by any number of ways, from a mirror spirit to a trap, and his reveal of this to Red is another point to both of you being different.

You must cooperate and recuperate. Aria and Five have parts of your past, and frankly, in your demolished state where you cannot even rely on yourself for the most basic of information, you need others such as Reed too. You need to work together, using both of your selves to regain The True Nino, and because you lack knowledge despite your intelligence, you just have to guess about the other for now. End this conflict, and discuss together to reach your goals, wage war amongst each other while and when debating on how to reach these goals as you gain a clearer understanding of yourself. Everything in Earth and Heaven prays for you to win, so work alongside the other. Win. Blue should tell Red about everything, as again, even the most basic of knowledge could alter your paths. Red should contract with himself in his heart of hearts to choose his fate and take responsibility for his actions. Phantom, guide the leading man with all of your knowledge, and be humble on what brings the best path and efficiency. It is not end justifying the means, but "si guarda al fine". Think of the final result, such as Nino losing trust which may be needed to push others diplomatically into acting. Means change ends. Nino, claim your willpower for yourself and grow into the man who you are meant to be, as a boy who harms and helps, whether at his own behest or others.

You saved Corvus because this pain will be gone in an instant, the agony of losing life would last an eternity. Whether as an ally or asset, and everything in between, take it as you will.

Arise and live, Nino. You will grow from a good kid to a great man.

Last edited 11 months ago by mysteriousmaverick
IHATETHEANTININO
IHATETHEANTININO
11 months ago

Nino: Do not act like a madman. You left the path of the wicked ever since you chose to go with Five. Phantom, assist others, and you will never be alone or abandoned again. However, it must be asked, why were all of the other slaughtered Ninos/Nina in the flock impaled by their own blades, within their own blood? Why did they vary so much, in gender and perhaps their donning of a cape?

Nino: Give answers, and turn your back on the devil from this day forth, becoming your own compassionate companion and friend of Nino's friends. Then you will find a way to be far from left alone and abandoned,

cB557
cB557
10 months ago

Seems to me like this is just Nino, but I guess it'd be out of character to just have that be the answer. I guess the obvious answer is just that it's the work of an enemy stand power, since you could rationalize basically any weird thing in this setting as that, but that's not a very compelling answer.

I guess I'd go with "You're a memory," as my answer. 's more or less admitting that this is a part of Nino, but gives good reason to not just do whatever it says either. You can learn from your memories, but you don't just keep doing whatever past you thought was a good idea.

Lurking_Chronicler
Lurking_Chronicler
10 months ago

(Unsure if you're still accepting answers, but...)

Nino: No explanation is needed. You are your own justification- you observe all that is not yourself, and you can never cease to be the point of origin of your own perspective.

The simple fact that your perspective is not that of your interlocutor means that you are not your interlocutor- and that your interlocuter is not, and cannot, be you.

Pun Lord
Pun Lord
10 months ago

Dang, Nino’s army’s already in another mess!

Nino: You’re both cut out of the same cloth, right? Just… try to find away to get who you are back without going to a path with a bad ending, please? Slash him and maybe try to figure out your secret sword move anyway if he keeps trying to hurt everyone.

Anonymous
Anonymous
10 months ago

Reveal Phantom’s true form by using the blade’s reflection?

GG Player
GG Player
10 months ago

fake nino is fake because real nino couldn't pull such a smug, punchable, imposter face

Pun Lord
Pun Lord
10 months ago
Reply to  GG Player

Couldn’t he tho?

GG Player
GG Player
10 months ago
Reply to  Pun Lord

he could but it just wouldn't be genuine

Pun Lord
Pun Lord
10 months ago
Reply to  GG Player

Because he'd only make a face like that when trying to make others think he's look cool or because he's the real Nino probably then?

GG Player
GG Player
9 months ago
Reply to  Pun Lord

what i'm trying to say is that real nino is fake smug and fake nino is real smug

Pun Lord
Pun Lord
9 months ago
Reply to  GG Player

Ah, I got you. Nino is smug because he wants to look cool, the freeloader in Nino's mind who gives him bad advice is an evil abomination. Though I think that with his "don't leave me" plea he could eventually become a good guy.

certifiedselenehater
certifiedselenehater
10 months ago

Nino: kill selene

^